Lisa Harper defines theology as talk about God, which makes every believer a theologian of some kind. Ed Stetzer tests what that definition asks of pastors, preachers, and seminaries. Stetzer, who trains seminarians at Talbot School of Theology, presses Harper on two gaps: students who learn theological words without being formed by them, and leaders whose correct doctrine seems to earn a pass for bad character. Harper answers from Matthew 23 and John 5, where Jesus confronts learned men who knew the Scriptures and missed him, and from Francis Schaeffer's warning about orthodoxy without compassion. She argues that a leader who can define every term but lacks humility holds information that has not yet reached the heart. They also take up two questions every church leader faces: how much personal story belongs in teaching, and whether a doctrine like the hypostatic union belongs in a neighborhood Bible study. Harper calls the failure to teach such doctrine a failure of shepherding. Harper is a Bible teacher, author of A Jesus-Shaped Life, and host of the Back Porch Theology podcast. She previously directed women's ministry at Focus on the Family and has led the same neighborhood Bible study in Nashville for 15 years.
Lisa Harper says church leaders, herself included, have watered down theology, and that doctrine that leaves character unchanged falls short.
The conversation
How should pastors teach theology to their people?
For years Harper gave her neighborhood Bible study a story, a short exegesis, and a takeaway, following homiletic rules she learned in her thirties. She now says it was her desire to be understood that was watering down her doctrine. Her test case is the hypostatic union. Stetzer frames the vocabulary question in plain terms: people who learn to order at Starbucks can learn theological language at church.
Does correct doctrine excuse bad character?
Stetzer names a pattern he sees: leaders who check every doctrinal box, treat people poorly, and get a pass. Harper rejects the assumption that their theology is good. She claims gaining information is important, since it informs our understanding of Jesus, but she believes that theology solely bound to academics is lifeless.
How much of your own story belongs in a sermon?
Harper’s test on whether a story is appropriate to share is if Jesus remains the hero. She names two failures she has corrected in herself: telling stories that belong to someone else, and humor at her own expense that made her the emphasis. She argues that stories of darkness can also become self-aggrandizing when listeners rally around the speaker's pain. On the opposite end is editing so much that teaching becomes performance.
From the conversation
"Show me somebody who has strong theology but doesn't have humility, and I would say that the information hasn't softened the heart yet." — Lisa Harper
"I think the onus is on us, and I don't think we've done a good job." — Lisa Harper
"I don't want to edit so much when I'm teaching that it becomes performative instead of testimonial." — Lisa Harper
"If you can learn to order coffee at Starbucks, you can learn some theological language at church." — Ed Stetzer
About Lisa Harper
Lisa Harper is a Bible teacher, speaker, and author of more than a dozen books and Bible studies, including A Jesus-Shaped Life: How Diving Deeper into Theology Can Transform Us and Our World with the Radical Kindness of God. She hosts the Back Porch Theology podcast and founded The Kerygma Summit, an annual gathering of theologians and Bible teachers. She holds a Master of Theological Studies from Covenant Seminary.
Website: https://www.lisaharper.org
Podcast: https://www.lisaharper.org/backporchtheology
Instagram: https://instagram.com/lisadharper
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OfficialLisaDHarper
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Shaped-Life-Theology-Transform-Kindness/dp/0800744764
[00:00:00] Lisa Harper: I said, "Okay, let's go outside," and she's like, "Okay, Mom." And we just went out and laid in the grass and looked at the stars. And I said, "So that's the Bible." Sometimes we should go, "Wow," instead of, "How can I put this in a rhyming acrostic?" And I said, "I want you to have wow when you come to the Bible,
[00:00:18] I think if we really love the men and the women and the children God allows us to rub shoulders with, I think it's easier in practice than it is conceptually to take these concepts and go, "Let me put this in real life."
[00:00:34] Ed Stetzer: This is The Exchange, presented by Gloo. This week, I sat down with Lisa Harper, and we had just a fascinating conversation. I think it's gonna help you think more about discipleship and spiritual growth in ways that I think will encourage you. So stick around for the conversation.
[00:00:51] One of the things that we're seeing today is kind of a question of where does theology fit in the life of the normal Christian? Now, our audience is pastors and church leaders, but, like, how should pastors and church leaders think about engaging their people in theology?
[00:01:05] Lisa Harper: Yeah. I think there's so many concepts that we have, whether it's us trying to cover up the fact that we feel insecure. I spent so many years thinking if somebody looks under the hood of my life, they'll think I'm a fraud so I wanted to parrot anything I learned in seminary so I would seem legitimate. So I think there's that sometimes in church leadership, but I think all too often we dismiss theology as an academic pursuit that it's about accruing facts and details about God, when theology is life itself. I love, you know, Thielicke is one of my favorite dead guy theologians. Helmut Thielicke says if theology doesn't work at the margins of life, then it doesn't matter if it works at the neat middle.
[00:01:47] And I think for us to recognize, wow, at its core, theos, God, logos, conversations, phrases, theology is talking about God. So everybody at some level is a theologian. Wack-a-doodle if they don't base their theology in the parameters of scripture. But for us to make theology less about our academics and more about life even the Trinity. Now, you're a brilliant theologian, so I don't wanna y- clean up any—
[00:02:07] Ed Stetzer: You have a whole chapter ... I don't know that I'm a theologian or brilliant, but go ahead.
[00:02:14] Lisa Harper: You are brilliant and a theologian. I love sitting at your feet. But so clean up whatever I say incorrectly here, but one of the things that drew me to the doctrine of the Trinity more than anything else is how God models community. So he didn't just mandate it, and you go, "Oh, so if we look at how God models" community, then that's actually an antidote for loneliness. So yes, it's a theological concept. What does that mean to me today if I'm not a seminary professor or a pastor? What if I'm just trying to figure out how to, you know, get my kids to school on time and not say words that aren't in the Bible? Wow, the Trinity is about a God who tells us, "You need each other."
[00:02:58] You need people, and he models that. For us to take concepts that all too often has b- have been portrayed as lofty academic subjects and go, "No, this is about life," and really it's about intimacy with Jesus. And so I think it takes a little work on our part, but it's also a big exhale to go, "Oh, I don't have to use multi-syllabic theological terms."
[00:03:19] Ed Stetzer: Not that there's anything wrong with multi-syllabic theology though.
[00:03:19] Lisa Harper: Yeah, nothing wrong, especially when you're with other academics. But really, that's just shorthand to get to a concept. For people to go, "Oh, this is actually about understanding at a deeper level this love letter we call the Bible and accessing this," and it's relational. It's not transactional.
[00:03:39] Ed Stetzer: I mean, this is what you've been passionate about the “back porch” theological discussions. So if somebody in our church sort of catches a hold of this what does that look like for them? Are they reading new books? Are they engaging in theological discussions? What would be the end result of your work?
[00:03:55] Lisa Harper: I mean, first and foremost, I would hope they lean more fully into the arms of Jesus. You know, I remember, Ed, being, it was one of my first classes in my, doctoral program, one of my professors was breaking down the rape text in Deuteronomy. And you think, "How in the world can that be encouraging?" But because there's, you know, some hard sexual abuse in my backstory, I found myself shocked that before culture began to protect women, that God effectively affected, you know, erected a fence around women when they were still under, what was an incredibly misogynistic rule.
[00:04:33] And he said, "No, if you're gonna, if you're gonna abuse one of my daughters, you're gonna set her up financially. You're gonna marry her to begin to repair some of the dignity you stole." I remember him breaking down that passage in class, and I couldn't help myself. I just began to weep. Because I've always, you know, I've always believed God is a redeemer, but just the holes in my own story I'd kinda been afraid to bring to the gospel. And so I think when people start going, "Oh, theology isn't academic, it's relational, and it involves healing and intimacy." So I think first and foremost it would be that your people begin to understand this is about my relationship with Jesus.
[00:05:17] You know how, in John's gospel, Jesus says to the Pharisees, John 5, "You get, you get the Hebrew scriptures. You've gotten the Bible, but you've missed me." I think that's an incredibly theological statement. So if you get all the multisyllabic theological terms, if you know how to parse the Greek or the Hebrew in a text, fine, but is your relationship with Jesus more intimate as a result? Yeah. So that, first and foremost to me, it would be the relational fruit of diving deeper in.
[00:05:44] Ed Stetzer: I think that your writing and your speaking is an example of ways that you wanna engage deeper theological truth, but you do it, even in the, two minutes ago, you kinda said "My own journey." You know, "This is my own experience." And this is kind of a struggle for pastors and church leaders 'cause it's like, how much do I share and how do I not share?
[00:06:01] Lisa Harper: We've been taught it's exegesis ...
[00:06:09] Ed Stetzer: Exactly. Right. So tell me how you try to weave that together.
[00:06:11] Lisa Harper: I didn't for years.
[00:06:11] Ed Stetzer: Oh, really?
[00:06:13] Lisa Harper: For years I tried to present, you know, I just felt like a fraud. And I thought, "Pfft, what does my story have to do with anything?" And then you look at redemptive narrative in scripture, and I go, "Oh, a whole lot of it is story." And a whole lot of it is what God did with one person's messy, lonely life, and how he takes these, you know, limping, broken- People who are prone to wander, and he sets them in a new place.
[00:06:41] And so I began to think, I mean, Ed, it's never where I feel like, man, I nailed that theological subject when I teach. That's never where people come up and ask me to pray. It's, you were lonely too. You felt dirty and damaged too and wondered how a God like that could delight. I got that God delivered me from my sins.
[00:07:00] And so I found myself going, "You know, I am not an academic. I study under academics. I wanna be really responsible. I'm a storyteller." And there's some places in scripture when you see that. There's of course other genres, but I've had to go, this is the small little bread he's given me to throw on the water. And so I'm gonna throw it with gusto.
[00:07:18] Ed Stetzer: Love it. So much of scripture is narrative. It's like it's the very scripture narrative. And so, when you are thinking through what to share so again, you talked about the Deuteronomy story, you talked about your own background. At what point do you say, "I should share this and not"? And is there- 'cause I'm trying to help my audience say, what would we do or not share?
[00:07:37] Lisa Harper: Right. Those, well, who are pastors, who you're teaching every, multiple times a week, coming up with fresh sermons. And I, my master's, program was at a great seminary, but I mean, it was drilled into me that if you share anything that's personal, any anecdotal aspect of your message takes people away from Jesus.
[00:07:59] And so for years, I did my best to just kinda edit or quell that part of me. And I'll tell you what freed me up to go, let me be wise about this, let me really pray about the stories. That there's things I used to share about my daughter's background. I don't share that anymore 'cause she's 16. And so that part of her story is hers to tell. So certainly there's things you don't wanna air your dirty laundry. You don't wanna do anything that is self ... I think sometimes when we call people to the darkest parts of our story, that can be self-aggrandizing in a way because that victimhood, people can rally around that like a maypole, and that's not the hero of the story. But it was the blind man. When they ask him those theological questions, he went, "I don't know." All I know is I was blind and now I can see. And when you look even at what we call the gospel in so much in the New Testament, it's the resurrection.
[00:08:57] We would, as academics go, "Well, that's not a complete gospel." I'm like, "Well, it was for Jesus." And so for me to go to someone, I don't know all the answers, but I can tell you what he's redeemed in my story. If that points to Jesus and he's the hero of the story, then I wanna be very wise in what I bring to the table, make sure it's not bringing too much into [TEXT MISSING?]
[00:09:19] I used to tease a lot about my weight, and I would use that as kind of this- It was kind of a common denominator when I would meet with women, talk with women, and it was a way of kinda leveling the playing field so you know, they don't see me as a woman with a microphone who has it all together. They see it as a woman who's just chubby just like me, wearing elastic waist pants like me. And I got really convicted that, you know what, in a self-deprecating way, I'm making myself too much the emphasis on the story.
[00:09:46] So yeah, it got me some laughs. Right. There was humor. I think sometimes humor helps people uncross the arms over their heart, but I was doing it in a way that was too much. And when the Lord convicted me, I was like, "Yes, sir." "That's made it too much about my story instead of about how you've redeemed my story." So I'm, you know, in kindergarten. There's still things. I'm sure after I got to be with all y'all today, amazing leaders, there'll be things that I go, "Mm, I need to edit that out. That wasn't appropriate with John 5." But I also don't want to so edit when I'm teaching that it becomes performative instead of testimonial.
[00:10:22] Ed Stetzer: And I think there can be a difference between performative and testimonial, for sure. And I think, you know, one of the things that you have in the, in, again, in the book, A Jesus-Shaped Life, you're really trying to help us not just be driven by information, though you do.
[00:10:32] I mean, you have a chapter, you mentioned the trinity, you have a chapter there and other theological concepts, Holy Spirit and more. So how do we not get trapped in the... 'Cause I work with students, you know? We're Talbot Seminary, and we have the, you know, three theology courses everyone takes, so it's a robust theological engagement. But man, we don't want them to just know the words and do this. So how do we make sure the formation's there, not just the information? That's part of the passion of your ministry and even in your book.
[00:10:57] Lisa Harper: Certainly. Bruce, Demarest who I never got to sit under, he was a professor at Denver Seminary, passed before I started there, brilliant Old Testament scholar, you know, very, very, world-renowned as an Old Testament scholar, and his wife invited him to an Emmaus walk when he's in his 50s, I think it was, and he thought, "Oh, this is gonna be so cheesy," and so just, you know, just kumbaya, everybody holds hands and, you know, sings and prays.
[00:11:25] Ed Stetzer: Emmaus, just for those who don't know, is kind of a weekend retreat and it's very spiritual formation-oriented
[00:11:28] Lisa Harper: But he's thinking it's just gonna be so, emotive. And so as a legit Old Testament scholar, he's like, "What does this have to do with me?" And he tells that it was in that environment that he had almost like a Thomas Chalmers moment.
[00:11:45] You know, I love it when Chalmers, a friend of mine who's a Chalmers, that's what he did his dissertation work on. He says he was universally admired and widely disliked. You know, 'cause he was brilliant, 1800s, but he was not kind. And when he almost died from tuberculosis, he had this encounter with Jesus and said, "If you heal me physically, I'll spend the rest of my life loving people well." And he became relational. So I don't think we dispel the information part of theology. That is what informs our understanding of Jesus. And so theology is not a bad thing. If theology is just bound by academics, then it becomes lifeless.
[00:12:28] But if we recognize this is the information in enscripturated love story we call the Bible that God reveals about himself, this is gonna not only increase my understanding, my commitment to, my gratitude for Jesus, for what he's done for us and continues to redeem in us, but it's also gonna help me love other image-bearers well. Then I think our theology has to inform our orthopraxy. I love how Francis Schaeffer said, "Biblical orthodoxy without compassion is surely the ugliest thing in the world." He doesn't say we shouldn't have biblical orthodoxy. He says it has to be married with how we live our lives. So I don't think you can have one without the other 'cause I've ... I was with a friend recently, and she said, "I'm just not like you. I love Jesus, but I don't love the Bible."
[00:13:16] Ed Stetzer: Interesting.
[00:13:16] Lisa Harper: And I thought, "That's why you've been walking with Jesus for 40 years and you still have such a hard time with some basic issues." Because you need more depth in your relationship. I couldn't say you were one of my dear friends if I never talked with you. And so if we see theology as primarily relational with Jesus that just deepens the bonds of intimacy and gratitude.
[00:13:38] Ed Stetzer: It should.
[00:13:39] Lisa Harper: Should.
[00:13:39] Ed Stetzer: Doesn't always. No. And I think sometimes what you'll see is, like, people will call you out for bad theology, but if you have good theology and bad character it's almost like it gets a pass in some cases.
[00:13:47] Lisa Harper: But is it really good theology then?
[00:13:49] Ed Stetzer: Well, I don't think so. That's my point.
[00:13:50] Lisa Harper: I don't either.
[00:13:51] Ed Stetzer: So unpack that with us 'cause we see people, man, they're so theologically ... And I would say I agree ... I'm not saying everyone I agree with is perfectly right.
[00:13:58] Lisa Harper: Right. No, no, no, I hear you. I hear you.
[00:13:59] Ed Stetzer: But, man, they're solid on their theology and their interactions with other people, their character. So how do we fix that part?
[00:14:03] Lisa Harper: Well, I would say they're solid on their information.
[00:14:05] Ed Stetzer: All right. Fair. Fair. I mean, I would say if you make a list of theological terms, they'd check them correct. They'd check the boxes.
[00:14:11] Lisa Harper: They'd check them correctly. They'd pronounce them correctly.
[00:14:14] Ed Stetzer: But bad character shouldn't get a pass 'cause you have good theology.
[00:14:15] Lisa Harper: Well, no, and you look at the teachings of Christ with the theologians in his era Matthew 23, again, John 5, you see him interacting with very learned and oftentimes well-intentioned. I mean, the Pharisees get a bad rap because of so much of the influence we have from German theologians around the time of the war, so not all Pharisees were bad. But it's like they miss the main point. It's like, y'all have knowledge. But you're not loving people, so you cannot say, if we really look at the teachings of Christ, you cannot say that you love God if you don't love people.
[00:14:52] He says you can't do that. So I always bristle when somebody says, "Well, they're a great theologian, but they're a jerk." I'm like, well, they have great theological information. If that hasn't changed, if there's nothing in them that's Christoformic, if their heart is not shaped like Jesus, or if there's not repentance where they are unkind.
[00:15:14] I mean, I've told you, I really have an issue with impatience sometimes with my daughter, and I apologize to her every time I do and say, "Baby, I'm so sorry." So there is grief in me over the places where I am overtly un-Christlike, and I'm doing everything I can to become more Christlike in those areas. And so show me somebody who has strong theology but doesn't have humility, and I would go, the information hasn't softened the heart yet.
[00:15:44] Ed Stetzer: I have thoughts but this is an interview with you.
[00:15:49] Lisa Harper: Well, and you see that... Well, I love the way you teach about that, and you do see that. I think there's a stage for that now with social media. And if you've got a great soundbite that sounds theologically- erudite- then people go, "What a great theologian." And I'm like, that doesn't tell me you're a great theologian. Let me see how you treat your wife and your kids or pure strangers- when you get off the stage, and then I'll tell you whether your theology is sound or not.
[00:16:15] Ed Stetzer: Come on. Come on. I'm gonna start preaching in here.
[00:16:16] Lisa Harper: There has to be orthopraxy.
[00:16:17] Ed Stetzer: So the fact that you would write a book that's very theological and call it A Jesus-Shaped Life there's a message that's there that sort of points to that. So make the bridge for us. I mean, again, you've got chapters on... It's not all about the Beatitudes. You know, it's not all about character. It's about theology but it's called... So unpack that.
[00:16:36] Lisa Harper: I, you know, I can't unpack it nearly as clear as you do because concise has never been my gift. That's scholars' gifts, not storytellers' gifts.
[00:16:36] Ed Stetzer: Have you met scholars? Like, concise is a scholar's gift?
[00:16:48] Lisa Harper: Well, concise when you're teaching one point.
[00:16:51] Ed Stetzer: That's fair. That's fair.
[00:16:52] Lisa Harper: Because, you know, you've gotta do it in a 55-minute class. Give me 55 minutes, I can introduce myself and tell one story. You... I think—
[00:17:00] Ed Stetzer: And I would say you need to stop saying you're... I mean, you're literally doing a doctoral degree. You're writing, you're teaching theology, and it's been a great thing. You're just quoting theologians and scholars here ...
[00:17:02] Lisa Harper: I'm taking forever there. You know what, I'm every woman, and I think that's a thing that's been really... You know, the reason I went back to get a doctorate, the main reason was to know Jesus more intimately, but I knew Missy would really struggle with school coming from Haiti and some of the issues she had, and I thought it would—
[00:17:13] Ed Stetzer: Your daughter, just so everybody—
[00:17:13] Lisa Harper: My daughter yeah. I became a mom through the miracle of adoption the year I turned 50. My daughter's from Haiti. And I thought it would be so cool to do homework at the kitchen table together which we still do. I just had to write a paper on Latin liberation theology the other night. And so we sit—
[00:17:35] Ed Stetzer: Wait, she wrote the paper or you wrote the paper?
[00:17:41] Lisa Harper: I wrote the paper on it, and it's... I'm just hoping I pass. That was it. Yeah, but you know what? Missy and I talked a lot about what I was studying because we talked about where you miss it if you make Jesus purely a political hero. But, and this may kind of circle back to your question, if there is nothing redemptive in the world around us when we say we are Christ followers then I go, is that actually the gospel? Because there should be echoes of redemption. There should be an eschatological reality, to the gospel and a socio-historic reality. So I should be a kinder mom because I'm studying the Trinity and so how, I don't know the one, two, three of that.
[00:18:28] I would say you dive as deeply as is possible for you in this season in your life into the word of God. Ask for the Holy Spirit to make the word of God jump off the page to you because it is a supernatural book. I'm big on Hebrews 4, logos being Jesus. Come on. We didn't have leather-bound Bibles then. He's saying Jesus is sharper than a two-edged sword. He's our empathetic high priest. You lean into this love story we call the Bible, you will get more of Jesus. So yeah, you'll get theology as far as conceptual but that, those conceptual ideas about Jesus become relational, and that's, to me, when it's biblical theology.
[00:19:10] Ed Stetzer: I want you to put yourself in the shoes of pastors, and staff, and church leaders and they're trying to figure out what is an appropriate amount to call people to theological engagement because you could say, you know, go to small group, and sometimes it's hard to get people to go to small group. And the small group is, maybe they're sharing what their opinion is of this verse. So how far can I push? How high can I put the cookies on the shelf to encourage people- Or I think regular folks to be theologically-minded?
[00:19:40] Lisa Harper: I think the onus is on us, and I don't think we've done a good job. And I'll just say I have not done a good job. Because in my desire to be engaging and understood, I've watered too many things down. And so I've started, we have a Bible study. You'd know some of the women there from your old Nashville days. But we've been doing this, a Bible study in a girl's home, in Green Hills for 15 years, and I would do a lot of, you know—
[00:19:45] Ed Stetzer: Green Hills is such a cool area. It's a great place.
[00:20:11] Lisa Harper: You, all the cool people are in Nashville. It's a great place. I love it. Well, they all love you, I'll tell you that. Don't move to Nashville.
[00:20:13] Ed Stetzer: It's full.
[00:20:15] Lisa Harper: It is, it's almost full. But great people are moving in, but you left a hole when you left. This group of women that I would usually give a great story, 20-minute brief exegesis with kind of a takeaway point or two, and follow the homiletic rules that I'd been taught back in my 30s. Well, I started studying this stuff and I thought, "Well, they need to know this too. They need to know about the, how the rape texts affect us. They need to understand what daughters of Zelophehad means." How awesome is that? They need to know... So the concept, just last year, that just slayed me was hypostatic union, that our Savior is transcendent, perfectly God, completely God, He did not sully His deity when He became incarnate, and yet miraculously accessible.
[00:21:02] Well, how do you teach that to a bunch of, you know, 40, 50-year-old women who are just coming to a neighborhood Bible study? I was at a conference I didn't wanna go to. And I went 'cause a friend of mine was doing it. I was like, "Ugh, I don't wanna be here." And at the end, it was just actually a night event, wasn't a conference, and at the end of the event she said, "We're gonna pray now for issues."
[00:21:24] And I thought, "That's cool. Nashville, you've got everybody in matching sweater sets and quilted Bible covers." And I thought, "Okay, cool." Well, she asked women who were lonely, this was during the Christmas season, to stand up. And I'm like, "That's pretty legit." In Nashville, in kind of a more wealthy ZIP code, you've got women standing up, and not, right then, not after they can wrap it across, stick around it, but that night, going, "I, I ache tonight." Well, this woman not far from me stood up, and she just... I thought she just said she's lonely.
[00:21:55] She's in the front row. There's nobody around her. And so I thought, "I don't have much to offer the body of Christ at this age and stage, but I can hug like a boss." So I thought, "I'm just gonna go down and hug her." So I hug this woman and it's not formal, but it wasn't real demonstrative. So you know, I'm hugging her, and I mean, the second I put my arms around her, she just starts sobbing. About my age. Just starts sobbing. And she went, "I'm sorry."
[00:22:18] And I said, "No, no, no, no. It's okay. This is my favorite part. This is my favorite part." I'm up against the stage, so I can't back up, and she's just packed. She can't back up, so we're just stuck together like glue. Christie Nockels was praying. You know Christie. So you know, Christie has an economy of words, and is so lovely, and I thought she'll just have like a three-minute prayer. Well, for whatever reason, I guess Christie hadn't caught up on her Bible reading. Her prayer was like 11 minutes. And so after like five minutes hugging this woman I'd never met before, it gets a little awkward.
[00:22:47] Ed Stetzer: It does, yeah.
[00:22:48] Lisa Harper: And I thought, "Okay, instead of encouraging her, I'm probably gonna send her reeling into therapy." And so I thought, "How do I tell her?" You know, and she said a second time, "I'm sorry." And I said, "No, no, no. This is my favorite part." And the third time, Ed... You know, we couldn't even separate from each other. The third time she went, "No, no, no. I'm sorry. I got a big glob of snot in your hair."
[00:23:11] Ed Stetzer: Oh, gosh.
[00:23:12] Lisa Harper: You know, there's a first time for everything in ministry. And I got so tickled, and it was... I mean, I don't wanna offend your audience. I know y'all are all leaders and I'm bringing a whole lot of real messy stuff to the table. But it was not a small distribution.
[00:23:26] Ed Stetzer: It was substantial ...
[00:23:27] Lisa Harper: Yes. And then they call me up to pray, and I'm just so tickled, 'cause I can't go to the restroom. I don't have time. You know, I'm just like, "Well, this is real life, baby.” I go home that night. Of course, I take a shower. I get out of the shower and I look in the mirror, and I had one of those... You know those epiphanies you just go, "How kind of God"? And I thought, "Oh, that's the hypostatic union."
[00:23:50] I thought, "I've been to 72 events this year. I've been all over the country, and the holiest thing I've had the undeserved privilege of being close to was another saint was close enough to me that, that part of her heartache was deposited in my hair. And I thought, "Our Savior, the King of all Kings condescended..." I love how Packer calls the incarnation more fantastic than fiction. That the King of all Kings would lay down his scepter and glory and be close enough to me that I can get the messiness of my life on His person. That accessibility slays me.
[00:24:34] And I thought, "Why would I not teach the hypostatic union to my friends who are not theologians or church leaders?" They're just trying to do life as well as they can close to Jesus. They're trying to talk to their college kids who've left and have taken their first sociology class and they go, "Wait, what I've learned by my sociology prof doesn't match what my youth pastor told me."
[00:24:56] "I didn't know there were some mistakes in the Tra-..." You know, and I'm like, "All right, let's talk about walking this well. We have a God who's not a faraway existential construct." So I think every single thing God in His mercy has distilled to us, of course you download the mind of God into our finite minds and it's gonna be distorted at some level, but I think it's incumbent upon us to go, "How can I help my friends my brothers and sisters understand this facet of the God who loves us more than we can ask or imagine?" And if we don't, I don't think we're shepherding the way He's called us to shepherd.
[00:25:38] Ed Stetzer: Fascinating. First of all, let me just say the fact that you used the word slay and the phrase hypostatic union in the same sentence is a gift to this whole conversation. But let's talk, hypostatic union. So I have a little pithy phrase. I say, 'cause I don't drink coffee, I think coffee is bitter water for bitter people, and so I don't—
[00:25:54] Lisa Harper: Okay, that's awesome.
[00:25:54] Ed Stetzer: I know. So I don't know—
[00:25:54] Lisa Harper: I'm totally stealing that. No, I don't- I'll cite you, but I like that.
[00:25:57] Ed Stetzer: —so, and I don't know, like I go into these coffee places, I don't even know these words. Like, so I say people, "If you can learn to order coffee at Starbucks, you can learn some theological language at church." So hypostatic union is maybe an example of that. I wanna think in terms of like I'm up here and I'm a pastor or a Bible teacher or for that matter, you know, a Sunday School or Small Group leader. So those words intimidate people.
[00:26:22] Lisa Harper: Oh, heck yeah.
[00:26:23] Ed Stetzer: And hypostatic union is a beautiful theological picture. So how, and again, your story helps lead to those conversations. So how would you advise... Let's just say for just a second the person who's teaching to a large group setting whatever large is for them, might be 30, might be 500. How would you say to them, "Here's how you introduce this"?
[00:26:39] Lisa Harper: Right. And we're all stylistically gonna be different. As a communicator, I'm gonna have a lot more narrative. So we're all gonna operate in the gifts that God has given us, the personality, giftings and parameters God has given us. But when I'm studying, let's say I want to teach my daughter, who English is a second language, 16, on the hypostatic union, and I go, "How can I break this concept down into real-life granular terms?" Well, I'm not gonna start with hypostatic union. I'm gonna start with "Honey, you know, who's somebody you saw from a distance and you thought, 'Oh, it'd be so cool to know them up close?'"
[00:27:16] And she's like, "Lauren Daigle." I'm like, "Yes!" Because my daughter loves Lauren, and I've got to do a few things with Lauren, and Lauren has been so sweet to Missy. And I'm like, "I know you see her on a stage, and you're like, 'That's Lauren Daigle.' And then she comes back and she hugs you and she laughs, and she's got, you know, a New Orleans accent." And you're like, "Oh, well, Baton Rouge accent." And you're like, "Oh, this is so cool." And I said, "You know, something that seemed far away became real personal to you." And she's like, "Yes, ma'am." And I'm like, "Okay. So let's look at Jesus because there's this point where John leans against Jesus." And then I act out with Missy how they'd sit on cushions, and John literally the Last Supper, leans into the arms of the Messiah.
[00:27:54] Ed Stetzer: We see it in the painting ...
[00:27:54] Lisa Harper: And I said, "So you've got this. That's super personal. And then let's go to the caboose of the New Testament." And then I show her where John engages with a glorified Jesus in the vision of Revelation, and it blows his hard drive. He falls as though dead. And she's like, "Oh." I said, "So that's like when you saw Ms. Lauren sing in the K-Love Awards, and it was so cool." And she was like, "Yeah." And I said, "So she's both really big, but she's your friend now." And she's like, "Yeah." And I said, "So that's what John is telling us about Jesus."
[00:28:31] He is perfectly God. And so when we see Him face to face, it'll be enough, the Bible says, but we'll also fall as though dead because He's bigger than we can understand. He's more glorious. Sometimes, Ed, w- I was trying to teach her a couple of weeks ago about... We were just talking about concepts that should distill wonder in us, and I was trying to teach her things in scripture that are beyond our human understanding. And so I'd used some big multi-syllabic words that I had borrowed from a professor, and I said, "Okay, let's go outside." And we live out in the boonies, and she's like, "Okay, Mom." And we just went out and laid in the grass and looked at the stars. And I said, "That's what I'm talking about when I talk about apophatic spirituality."
[00:29:19] You're blown away. And our minds are too little to understand that, but isn't it cool to look at and just go, "Wow!" And I said, "So that's the Bible." Sometimes we should go, "Wow," instead of, "How can I put this in a rhyming acrostic?" And I said, "I want you to have wow when you come to the Bible, and I want you to have I know Him when it comes to Jesus, too." So I think if we really love the men and the women and the children God allows us to rub shoulders with, I think it's easier in practice than it is conceptually to take these concepts and go, "Let me put this in real life." Pray about it.
[00:29:58] Start thinking, "Okay, in this next series I'm doing on Ephesians," goodness gracious, Romans, let's say Romans, table fellowship. You have to read Romans from back to front to really get what he's talking about. It's not just systematic theology. So I wanna get table fellowship in. Okay, well let me tell some stories. Ephesians, I wanna get community in. So how can I talk about the Trinity through community when I'm doing Ephesians? So I think we might have to do a little more work instead of just having something that's gonna have some great sound bites on social media, and really pray through what is God bringing to the forefront of my mind and heart as his beloved, and how can I, with this platform that I didn't deserve, that he gave me, how can I make him an even bigger hero?